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Norse ~ Valid points on it limiting experience players to what mechanical rules are listed, but I am at wits end (maybe because of the vast initial introduction to the hobby with later version) with players that don't have any mechanical options defaulting to the "I attack the Orc"... "Rolled a 12".... Booooooring. I have even, after explaining the freedom of options to them, tried penalizing them with a -1 to hit for each subsequent "I attack... rolled a..." exchange. Meat heads!

The BthB division is what I was offering up at the beginning of the thread, granted it (the thread) has focused more on HD/HP and leveling thus far, but there as been some concern brought up about the option of divvying up the BthB (trying to stay away from BtB... too modern a phrase for me at the moment) as a combat model, that I was calling "Combat Advantage".

Thanks for the reply,
The Bane

The Bane wrote:Norse ~ Valid points on it limiting experience players to what mechanical rules are listed, but I am at wits end (maybe because of the vast initial introduction to the hobby with later version) with players that don't have any mechanical options defaulting to the "I attack the Orc"... "Rolled a 12".... Booooooring. I have even, after explaining the freedom of options to them, tried penalizing them with a -1 to hit for each subsequent "I attack... rolled a..." exchange. Meat heads!

The BthB division is what I was offering up at the beginning of the thread, granted it (the thread) has focused more on HD/HP and leveling thus far, but there as been some concern brought up about the option of divvying up the BthB (trying to stay away from BtB... too modern a phrase for me at the moment) as a combat model, that I was calling "Combat Advantage".

Thanks for the reply,
The Bane

I think the concern was more to do with the Combat Advantage bonus given to the person with the higher level than the character/monsters actual To Hit Bonus used in the Ascending Armour Class system being split up. I was trying to say you could use the division, but by using the characters To Hit Bonus instead of an extra Combat Advantage you can have the options without worrying about the valid concerns raised about your idea!
Having had a quick look at the new pdf I have however just noticed that the To Hit Bonus is less obvious than it was in the previous printing, where it was listed in the class progression.

Edit: Another thought if you are having difficulty getting your players into the right mind set is Mythmeres "A Quick Primer for Old School Gaming", which may be located here:

http://www.lulu.com/content/3019374

If you haven't already seen it. Its not very long, so you could print out copies for the players to read quite easily. Hope it helps!

I was referring to the BtB (around pg 24 of S&W:WB, where it talks about Ascending AC) and was just calling it "Combat Advantage" as a House Rule title.

To paraphrase the concerns by doing this:
Monsters get a +1 / HD so would almost always have a bigger bonus than an equal level PC
Adding a +1 to damage is seems more deadly considering a typical 1d6 HP range
record keeping (though I suggested subtracting one BtB from the other and allowing the higher the difference to divvy up

I am checking out the Primer as I type. Thanks,
The Bane

Llenlleawg wrote:The different results is the notable difference, and one worth considering, but not obviously a case of better vs. worse game design.

Of course "better" game design is subjective, but I meant that I consider it better game design (from a theoretical standpoint) when it doesn't matter where characters come from; their hit points are generated the same.

Llenlleawg wrote: The method you prefer, the one that has been standard in D&D since, oh, 1975 (!), has the advantage you state, viz. that there is no material difference between rolling up a 4th level player all at once and rolling his hit points level by level. This is an aesthetic advantage, however, not a material one.

The material difference comes from the possibility of low or high rolls. In the system you prefer, a low or high roll is with you for life. So, if some lucky fighting man at third level has 18 hit points, he is guaranteed to have at least 19 hit points at 4th level, and a 16-2/3% chance of having 24 hit points. Conversely, the poor devil with only 3 hit points at 3rd level (don't ask how he survived!) can only at best have 9 hit points at 4th, and has a 16-2/3% chance of having only 4 hit points at 4th. On the other hand, in the WB method, the 18 hit point 3rd level fighting man is most likely to remain at 18 hit points, with only a 0.00077% chance of 24 hit points, since only four sixes will net him that amount, but any roll totaling 18 or less on 4 dice will yield 18. Likewise, the fighting man with 3 hit points can have as many as 24 hit points, and indeed is as likely to do so as the 18 hit point character. Plus, he will more likely have around 14 hit points (four times the average roll of "3.5"), well above the 9 maximum above.

So, while both systems will, over many characters, yield the same average hit points, the WB system draws individual characters towards the average over time, while always holding out to them the chance of attaining maximum points and of "repairing" poor rolls from the past. The system you recommend, and the dominant one until 4e, allows excellent rolls early on to build up later rolls and maintains the unfortunate rolls for those who rolled low early on, reducing the likelihood of either extreme to be drawn to the average.

This is wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong!!!!!!! (Not badwrongfun, but just an incorrect claim.) There is a completely material difference. It is not aesthetic. Sure, you're right about it fixing bad rolls, but the problem is that it does so by outright ignoring them (and doesn't do so for "average" or good rolls).

(Get ready for it; here's where you goofed.)
The systems absolutely do not yield the same average hit points over time, because the one presented in S&W:WB (re-rolling) specifically prohibits taking a lower hit point total upon leveling up. Say, for example, that a fighting-man might roll an average 3.5 hit points per HD roll. That means that 2nd level fighting-men will have 7 hit points on average with my method. But with yours (the one in S&W:WB), this is not the case. Why? Because what if the fighting-man in question rolled maximum hit points at first level!? The lower range of 2nd-level hit dice rolls will be utterly ignored in favor of the new "average," while the upper range remains as a welcome possibility. What if he rolled poorly at first? Nobody cares since those rolls will be overshadowed at level 2.

In short, characters will have an extremely remote chance of having below "average" hit points (especially on the extreme), and the more they level up, the more remote that chance becomes. On the other hand, the possibility of high hit points is as strong as ever (not high, mind you, but much much much higher than the chance of low hp). Rolling a character outright without jumping through these hoops will present a greater chance of having low hit points.

By the way, the method given (the one you're saying is easier) is 100% fixed by allowing for a lower total upon leveling up. It might be underwhelming for players, but it would straighten out the progression to put it where it should be.

Norse wrote:Having said that, one thing you might like to try if you do want more mechanical options (though it does create rather a lot of bookwork) is to allow players and monsters to split their To-Hit Bonus between To Hit, Armour Class and Damage.

E.g. 3rd Level fighting man has +2 hit bonus. He could have any one of the following options:

+2 To Hit
+2 Armour Class
+2 Damage
+1 To Hit, +1 Armour Class
+1 To Hit, +1 Damage
+1 Armour Class, +1 Damage

Edit: Had a thought. You could easily reduce the bookwork for that by using a physical component. Glass nuggets or something could be used to indicated where your bonuses are.

Actually, I kind of like that. It does seem to be a bit of work and complication, but I think that it's not THAT much and could add a LOT of options for players and address a number of things not really covered in they rules. Or things covered by separate, often quite different, rules.

Lord Kilgore wrote:Actually, I kind of like that. It does seem to be a bit of work and complication, but I think that it's not THAT much and could add a LOT of options for players and address a number of things not really covered in they rules. Or things covered by separate, often quite different, rules.

Well, I believe its something a few people have thought before, though I've not actually had the chance to try it myself. Should prove quite interesting!

Random wrote:(Get ready for it; here's where you goofed.)
The systems absolutely do not yield the same average hit points over time, because the one presented in S&W:WB (re-rolling) specifically prohibits taking a lower hit point total upon leveling up. Say, for example, that a fighting-man might roll an average 3.5 hit points per HD roll. That means that 2nd level fighting-men will have 7 hit points on average with my method. But with yours (the one in S&W:WB), this is not the case. Why? Because what if the fighting-man in question rolled maximum hit points at first level!? The lower range of 2nd-level hit dice rolls will be utterly ignored in favor of the new "average," while the upper range remains as a welcome possibility. What if he rolled poorly at first? Nobody cares since those rolls will be overshadowed at level 2.

In short, characters will have an extremely remote chance of having below "average" hit points (especially on the extreme), and the more they level up, the more remote that chance becomes. On the other hand, the possibility of high hit points is as strong as ever (not high, mind you, but much much much higher than the chance of low hp). Rolling a character outright without jumping through these hoops will present a greater chance of having low hit points.

I'm afraid this is where you goofed a bit as well. Despite your claim, the averages will be (nearly) the same. You are certainly correct that, should a player roll maximum hit points at first level, or even the first few levels, he will, for a few levels, be above average. The leveling out occurs because, for players who roll high, the chances become increasingly remote that they will increase at all when they level up. A 7 hit point 1st level fighter (maximum first roll), upon advancing to 2nd level, is more likely than not to remain at 7 hit points. Should he perchance get 12 points for 2nd, he is now even more likely to remain at 12 for 3rd level, and odds are good will only be around 14 for 4th. Since rolling maximum hit points becomes increasingly unlikely the more dice that are rolled, the higher level rolls will be drawn more likely to the average score. So, a brief burst of a lucky maximum at an early level will almost invariably be leveled off later.

Where you are correct is in suggesting that this system does tend to reduce the chances of having low hit points, and so the mean will skew a bit higher, but quite honestly not by much since the median will be increasingly the average roll. Likewise, while considered as a group, you are correct that the odds of high scores are the same for both systems. Not so, however, for individual players. Someone in your system who has rolled high is, in your language, "much much much" more likely to retain high hit points when he gains a level (since he will always gain at least one point, adding to his already high rolls), whereas in the WB system, a lucky roll at one level is "much much much" less likely to increase the next time he rolls for hit points, since he is not guaranteed to add any points at all.

(whew!)

Now, since we have agreed that, in the end, the actual discrepancy between the two systems overall is relatively slight, and since any adventure assuming one system in its design would not disadvantage players who had presumed the other, might we be willing to engage in a little truce?

Llenlleawg wrote:Now, since we have agreed that, in the end, the actual discrepancy between the two systems overall is relatively slight, and since any adventure assuming one system in its design would not disadvantage players who had presumed the other, might we be willing to engage in a little truce?

Nope, I'm not convinced. I'll do the calculations later and let you know how it turns out.

Random wrote:

Llenlleawg wrote:Now, since we have agreed that, in the end, the actual discrepancy between the two systems overall is relatively slight, and since any adventure assuming one system in its design would not disadvantage players who had presumed the other, might we be willing to engage in a little truce?

Nope, I'm not convinced. I'll do the calculations later and let you know how it turns out.

Fine, then. Here we go, using a cleric (since his hit dice are easy to calculate and compare [1, 2, 3]).

At first level, what are the odds for the range of hit points in the two systems? For first level, the odds are the same.

So, what about second level? We'll look at three scenarios. In A, our cleric had only 1 hit point at first level, in B he had 3 hit points, in C he had 6 hit points.

As expected, the minimal hit point character using the Whitebox method is more than likely to pull past his minimal hit point peer using the “don't reroll all the dice” method (the "other" method throughout), from 1st to 2nd level. Indeed, he has a 41.67% chance to have more hit points than his peer even possibly could (i.e. 8-12).

For just below average (3 hit points), the difference is not so stark. The Whitebox character has a 75% chance of falling within the same range (4-9 hit points) as his peer. His odds of getting 8-10 hit points are equal to his peer's odds of 8-9, and while he does have a 16.67% chance of getting hit points higher than his peer possibly could (10-12), he also has an 8.33% chance (1:12) of not increasing in hit points at all, i.e. having a lower value than possible for his peer. [Note that just above average, at 4 hit points, the odds tip in reverse, namely, only a 8.33% chance to be out of his peer's range (11-12), while a 16.67% chance (1:6) to be below the minimum score of his peer (i.e. remaining at 4 hit points). If one could actually roll 3.5, this would mean that there is a 75% chance of having the same range, with a 12.5% chance to fall below and a 12.5% chance to go above the peer's range.]

At maximum hit points, we get a very different picture, not precisely the inverse of the minimum scenario, but still not great news for the Whitebox player. The Whitebox player has only a 58.33% chance to fall in the range of his peer, and while his peer has a full 50% chance to have 10-12 hit points, the Whitebox player has a mere 16.67% chance (1:6) for the same range. Indeed, the peer has a full 16.67% chance for maximum hit points (12), while the Whitebox player has only one-sixth the odds, namely 2.78% (1:36). At the same time, he has a full 41.67% chance (5:12) of remaining below the lowest possible score of his peer, i.e. remaining at 6 hit points.

Now we'll try for 3rd level, i.e. 3d6. In scenario I, we'll look at minimum at 2nd level (2) advancing to 3rd, for scenario II, we'll see average (7) advancing to 3rd, and for scenario III, we'll see maximum (12) advancing to 3rd.

As we might expect, the same patterns appear, but more starkly. In scenario I, there is no contest. A minimum hit point Whitebox character at 2nd going to 3rd has only a 25.93% chance of being in the same range as his peer (3-8 hit points), giving him just under 74.07% chance (<3:4) of having 9-18 hit points. Indeed, he has a 57.87% chance, i.e. more than double, to be a full d6 higher (9-13 hit points), and a 16.20% chance of the highest hit points (14-18).

For the average score (7) advancing to 3rd, as above, things level out considerably. The Whitebox character has a 67.58% chance (>2:3) of being in the same range as his peer, viz. 8-13 hit points, with the highest odds (25% chance [1:4]) being towards the middle (10-11) as opposed to his peer's equally good chance of scoring high as scoring low. On the other hand, the Whitebox character is as likely (16.20% [<1:6]) to be below the lowest possible for his peer, remaining at 7 hit points, as he is to go beyond his peer, with the odds of maximally high scores (to get 18 is 1:216) being especially remote. Compared to the scenario above, this means that the Whitebox character will still tend to have the same range as his peer if his base score is average, and is no more likely to exceed his peer than he is to fall below his peer's minimum, although as he advances in level, he will become relatively more likely to fall below or to exceed than to fall in the same range.

Finally, the maximal scenario is also no contest, but the shoe's on the other foot! The Whitebox character is now 74.07% likely to remain at 12 hit points. That's right, there are 3:4 odds that he does not gain any hit points at all and falls necessarily behind his peer, who would have a minimum of 13! Moreover, his peer is now fully thirty-six times more likely to have 18 hit points than the Whitebox character (and twelve times more likely to have a 17, etc.). This pattern will of course continue as levels increase, so that, given two characters with maximum hit points, the Whitebox character will be increasingly likely not to gain any hit points at all and to fall back towards the average while the peer will continue to have reasonably good odds (50%) to remain above the average, and indeed to remain high.

What does this all show? Rather what we both knew before the number crunching. As we noted, the Whitebox system tends to “repair” low rolls, so that as levels increase, the odds of such a character not having average hit points diminishes. Average hit point characters will show increasing chances both of excelling and of falling behind as the number of hit dice increases. Nevertheless, high hit point characters will be increasingly and more powerfully held back and incline more to the average. The punch line? Whitebox characters will over time end up with average hit points. Not only that, any given character, the longer he is played, even if he has a high total at any given level and certainly if he has a low score at any level, is most likely in the long run to end up average.

The “other” version, by contrast, results in lags and gaps that become harder and harder to bridge. A low hit point character, the longer he rolls low, will find some hit point totals forever out of his grasp, and even average hit points a receding possibility unless he starts to roll better. Likewise, high-rolling characters will be less likely to be undone by low rolls, and will tend to remain on top of their game, apart from a string of low or middling rolls.

So, while all Whitebox characters will tend to the average individually (and not just by averaging them across a large sample), this is not so with the other method. Granted, Whitebox allows a little variety, and occasional lucky rolls, so that it does not resemble systems without any randomness to hit points (e.g. D&D 4e). Even so, given that many people house rule such things as maximum hit points at first level or rerolling any 1s or 2s for those using the “other” method, Whitebox will surely produce nothing out of the ordinary, and indeed, over the course of levels, will tend to produce average hit points across the board.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

Don't give me that QED crap. I also am too lazy to do all the mathematics, so I've instead simulated it for one million fighting-men (surely an ample sample). I hope you'll agree that the WhiteBox method has an obvious bias.

Fighting-men Level 1, Random
2: 166541
3: 167089
4: 166227
5: 166848
6: 166843
7: 166452
Fighting-men Level 2, Random
2: 27678
3: 55421
4: 83692
5: 111031
6: 138802
7: 166541
8: 139224
9: 111131
10: 83117
11: 55582
12: 27781
Fighting-men Level 3, Random
3: 4665
4: 13895
5: 27798
6: 46180
7: 69747
8: 97034
9: 115414
10: 125507
11: 124800
12: 115852
13: 96932
14: 69389
15: 46175
16: 27890
17: 14086
18: 4636
Fighting-men Level 4, Random
4: 764
5: 3165
6: 7743
7: 15355
8: 27001
9: 42927
10: 61595
11: 80633
12: 96817
13: 107910
14: 112383
15: 107718
16: 97165
17: 79597
18: 61630
19: 43515
20: 27044
21: 15372
22: 7768
23: 3113
24: 785
Fighting-men Level 5, Random
5: 121
6: 713
7: 1864
8: 4547
9: 9103
10: 16060
11: 26250
12: 39058
13: 54187
14: 69537
15: 83466
16: 95013
17: 100173
18: 100720
19: 94218
20: 83344
21: 69128
22: 53858
23: 39439
24: 26602
25: 16317
26: 9036
27: 4531
28: 1925
29: 668
30: 122
Fighting-men Level 6, Random
6: 20
7: 145
8: 432
9: 1206
10: 2845
11: 5357
12: 9582
13: 16254
14: 24907
15: 35845
16: 48089
17: 61108
18: 73629
19: 83594
20: 90406
21: 92846
22: 90519
23: 83099
24: 74216
25: 61209
26: 47981
27: 35666
28: 25024
29: 16305
30: 9829
31: 5335
32: 2732
33: 1204
34: 469
35: 129
36: 18
Fighting-men Level 7, Random
7: 3
8: 30
9: 94
10: 309
11: 762
12: 1600
13: 3304
14: 6006
15: 9988
16: 15761
17: 23594
18: 32365
19: 43441
20: 54338
21: 65567
22: 75023
23: 81847
24: 85717
25: 85761
26: 82429
27: 75056
28: 64973
29: 54802
30: 43214
31: 32865
32: 23321
33: 15859
34: 9950
35: 5987
36: 3260
37: 1617
38: 748
39: 292
40: 84
41: 29
42: 4
Fighting-men Level 8, Random
8: 0
9: 6
10: 20
11: 60
12: 198
13: 483
14: 1041
15: 1992
16: 3661
17: 6247
18: 9900
19: 15167
20: 21870
21: 30155
22: 39204
23: 49031
24: 58851
25: 67750
26: 74259
27: 79684
28: 80718
29: 79012
30: 75098
31: 67820
32: 59108
33: 48914
34: 39052
35: 30038
36: 21927
37: 15125
38: 10018
39: 6162
40: 3716
41: 1921
42: 1020
43: 476
44: 191
45: 81
46: 15
47: 8
48: 1
Fighting-men Level 9, Random
9: 0
10: 1
11: 3
12: 12
13: 38
14: 152
15: 319
16: 636
17: 1215
18: 2171
19: 3889
20: 6497
21: 9850
22: 14441
23: 20285
24: 27541
25: 35864
26: 43966
27: 53562
28: 61404
29: 68381
30: 73616
31: 76258
32: 76021
33: 73450
34: 68190
35: 61377
36: 53464
37: 44558
38: 35524
39: 27578
40: 20408
41: 14677
42: 9745
43: 6451
44: 3805
45: 2316
46: 1241
47: 602
48: 286
49: 139
50: 44
51: 17
52: 3
53: 3
54: 0
Fighting-men Level 10, Random
10: 0
11: 1
12: 0
13: 3
14: 10
15: 38
16: 75
17: 177
18: 418
19: 753
20: 1333
21: 2460
22: 4123
23: 6288
24: 9443
25: 13799
26: 19022
27: 25284
28: 32794
29: 40652
30: 48248
31: 56203
32: 62577
33: 68160
34: 71918
35: 72417
36: 71355
37: 68125
38: 63084
39: 55990
40: 48346
41: 40755
42: 32807
43: 25269
44: 18958
45: 13842
46: 9577
47: 6312
48: 4040
49: 2492
50: 1417
51: 712
52: 400
53: 190
54: 81
55: 32
56: 13
57: 6
58: 1
59: 0
60: 0
Press any key to continue . . .

Fighting-men Level 1, WhiteBox
2: 166580
3: 166181
4: 166605
5: 167116
6: 166032
7: 167486
Fighting-men Level 2, WhiteBox
2: 4638
3: 23253
4: 55546
5: 102076
6: 161499
7: 236421
8: 138476
9: 111080
10: 83753
11: 55431
12: 27827
Fighting-men Level 3, WhiteBox
3: 122
4: 1411
5: 7127
6: 23853
7: 62172
8: 92535
9: 125538
10: 145378
11: 149456
12: 133533
13: 97030
14: 68969
15: 46538
16: 27827
17: 13944
18: 4567
Fighting-men Level 4, WhiteBox
4: 0
5: 42
6: 339
7: 2246
8: 7544
9: 20286
10: 41805
11: 73196
12: 103545
13: 123404
14: 133042
15: 128959
16: 113074
17: 89899
18: 65512
19: 43396
20: 26901
21: 15417
22: 7665
23: 2996
24: 732
Fighting-men Level 5, WhiteBox
5: 0
6: 0
7: 7
8: 67
9: 461
10: 1801
11: 6264
12: 15891
13: 32151
14: 55398
15: 81200
16: 105601
17: 119869
18: 123430
19: 115505
20: 100507
21: 80726
22: 60205
23: 41767
24: 26968
25: 16046
26: 8881
27: 4527
28: 1937
29: 649
30: 142
Fighting-men Level 6, WhiteBox
6: 0
7: 0
8: 0
9: 3
10: 15
11: 82
12: 409
13: 1589
14: 4899
15: 11936
16: 24340
17: 43009
18: 65161
19: 87325
20: 104881
21: 114593
22: 114299
23: 105225
24: 90903
25: 73028
26: 55499
27: 39517
28: 26700
29: 16850
30: 9722
31: 5378
32: 2734
33: 1273
34: 462
35: 150
36: 18
Fighting-men Level 7, WhiteBox
7: 0
8: 0
9: 0
10: 0
11: 0
12: 1
13: 4
14: 67
15: 323
16: 1198
17: 3692
18: 8871
19: 18656
20: 32970
21: 51974
22: 72315
23: 90775
24: 103334
25: 108629
26: 106320
27: 96581
28: 83235
29: 66787
30: 51364
31: 37409
32: 25996
33: 16902
34: 10525
35: 6073
36: 3208
37: 1642
38: 729
39: 301
40: 88
41: 30
42: 1
Fighting-men Level 8, WhiteBox
8: 0
9: 0
10: 0
11: 0
12: 0
13: 0
14: 0
15: 6
16: 10
17: 56
18: 247
19: 977
20: 2723
21: 6739
22: 14117
23: 25770
24: 40923
25: 58910
26: 77197
27: 92055
28: 101476
29: 103236
30: 99038
31: 89196
32: 76137
33: 61617
34: 47753
35: 35324
36: 24754
37: 16843
38: 10782
39: 6622
40: 3777
41: 1962
42: 1003
43: 478
44: 166
45: 72
46: 29
47: 3
48: 2
Fighting-men Level 9, WhiteBox
9: 0
10: 0
11: 0
12: 0
13: 0
14: 0
15: 0
16: 0
17: 0
18: 1
19: 8
20: 51
21: 196
22: 664
23: 1987
24: 5048
25: 10640
26: 19415
27: 32464
28: 48311
29: 65171
30: 80304
31: 92023
32: 98083
33: 97296
34: 92569
35: 82785
36: 70474
37: 57469
38: 44885
39: 33594
40: 23825
41: 16290
42: 10723
43: 6800
44: 4089
45: 2398
46: 1209
47: 722
48: 300
49: 136
50: 52
51: 12
52: 3
53: 2
54: 1
Fighting-men Level 10, WhiteBox
10: 0
11: 0
12: 0
13: 0
14: 0
15: 0
16: 0
17: 0
18: 0
19: 0
20: 0
21: 2
22: 13
23: 37
24: 169
25: 517
26: 1504
27: 3759
28: 7930
29: 15195
30: 25361
31: 38725
32: 54317
33: 69212
34: 81782
35: 91152
36: 95048
37: 93506
38: 87067
39: 77122
40: 65307
41: 53185
42: 41149
43: 31505
44: 22833
45: 16080
46: 10668
47: 6994
48: 4394
49: 2562
50: 1452
51: 742
52: 383
53: 190
54: 81
55: 41
56: 10
57: 6
58: 0
59: 0
60: 0
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