Early Warning

[Eldrad]

I really think a lower price would attract more gamers but $25 is really not that much for a hardcover gamebook. I don't know how many times I went to buy a game book and saw the price and put it down NEVER to even think of the book again. The interior could stay B&W as I assume that much of the expense of modern game book is all the color printing.

The OSR is going to get bigger and bigger as people realizes how fun the "Less rules more beer approach" (or should I say "Less Rules more fun") to gaming is going to get .

The idea to add an Appendix with other class options is a great idea.

Make sure and list them as "optional" and it should be no problem. Make sure and add as many common classes as possible as well as advice on how to make up new classes (and races) in the old school style.

The free form openness and endless options were what made the old days great from what I can tell as I came a bit afterwords.

Whatever happens make sure and put out lots of modules! Make em good, plenty, and cheap! The Modules is what I remember from the old days.

That is where WotC has went wrong IMHO because they only put out high priced splat books and very few modules. When they do put out a module it's $29.95 and although very good and well written just too much $$$ for very little module.

[JimLotFP]

... the Old School Primer would be a dandy appendix as well.

[Mythmere]

Just to damp down speculation, it's not TLG or XRP. You're not going to guess it ahead of time.

Let me address the various concerns, but first just to give an idea of the way distribution works in the game industry:
The game store gets the product for 60% of the retail price (that can vary, but it's the rough number). If you go through a distributor, the distributor takes about 15%. Then, somehow, I've failed to remember what happens to 5% of it. The publisher gets roughly 20% of the retail price. That means you have to mark the book up to five times the printing cost just to break even, and you're also paying whatever advertising expenses you have. This is why larger game companies have their own people out at the hobby stores trying to cut out the distributor.

Price:
I haven't seen any $10 games out there, but (admittedly) I don't shop much - I did buy a copy of Mongoose's Traveller, and it cost me $20 for a 5x8 softcover I could barely read because the print had been shrunken so much. For an entire game with monsters, treasure, and rules, $22-$25 is actually a very low price -- in the market -- for an all-in game. I'm not in favor of raising prices - I said as recently as a couple of months ago that I'd prefer to keep prices low and avoid the distribution chain. Pricing is a major part of strategy, and I'll address strategy below.

Strategy:
My goals are (a) to spread the 0e rules into the mainstream gaming community, not only for the sake of 0e, but to show everyone that the whole OSR is a movement that can muscle into the mainstream and play with the big boys, (b) support existing 0e players with new resources, a place to hang out online, and convention support (c) support non-0e old school gamers with convention support, (d) support other retro-clones and OOP games.

So there are three concerns here; price, the "feel" of the products, and the power/presence of the fans. Too high a price, and some people can't afford the game (at least, not in print - the pdf is free). If the products pick up the anime super-sword vibe, or abandon old school gaming principles like not railroading, that's a problem. If the fans are suddenly treated like mindless consumers, that's a problem. That's where I see the concerns.

For some of these, you'll just have to meet the publisher once the deal is done. I picked the publisher based on specifically avoiding these concerns, not on raw market power: we're not talking Mongoose. I'm looking for a long term, ongoing, support relationship with a publisher, not just someone who can vomit the books into zillions of game stores. I want someone who will use financial capital, industry knowledge, and access to resources such as art and graphic design to double and triple the capabilities we have right now. There's only so far my skills can carry us, even with the creative resources here on this board. If the goal is to play with the big boys, one of the first things I learned as a corporate lawyer is NOT to try and learn that on the job. Get someone who knows the terrain. (Knowing the terrain also happens to be Sun Tzu's first principle of war).

Keep in mind: ANY publisher could start producing S&W materials using the open license. My goal here has been to pick a publisher whom I think is right in line with our gaming philosophy and to give him an advantage - the rulebook. By backing a chosen publisher, we have the ability to influence the growth of S&W in terms of feel and oldschool quality. It has become clear to me that more than one publisher is -- at the very least -- planning to claim S&W compatibility on new products. I talked to one who's planning this at the NTRPGCon, for example. If we want to have any control over the process, we need to be in it. It's going to happen whether or not I'm involved - that has become clear. S&W is slowly growing into the genie out of the bottle - it's growing in places I can't see, and it's being discussed by several mainstream publishers.

4e is not doing well. There is no longer one flagship game as far as the hobby stores are concerned. Gamers are starting to look at the old editions again, since there's no flagship. The "original" edition is obviously the one people look at ... if you're going to try a "retro" game, you tend to go all the way retro. And here's S&W sitting there with an open license, which all the 3e publishers are familiar with as a publishing model. You can almost hear the eyeballs starting to click.

That's the general thinking. In summary, though, what's really important to take away from this, is that I chose the publisher out of more than one possible choice, and I chose based not on commercial considerations but on who made the best "fit" with us.

[bat]

I told you so! I told you so! Look here!

Thank you for the explanation, Matt. I am sure that you are doing the right thing and it will work out. And thank you for being patient with those concerned. I am also confident that you chose the right publisher. We are just collectively shaky. We fear change. And small bills.

[Magnus]

Just to damp down speculation, it's not TLG or XRP. You're not going to guess it ahead of time.

Goodman games? White Wolf ?

Price:
I haven't seen any $10 games out there, but (admittedly) I don't shop much - I did buy a copy of Mongoose's Traveller, and it cost me $20 for a 5x8 softcover I could barely read because the print had been shrunken so much.

have a look at the Explorers edition of Savage Worlds for a better example of a cheap role playing game

is that I chose the publisher out of more than one possible choice, and I chose based not on commercial considerations but on who made the best "fit" with us.

Just glad it's not Mongoose or Troll lords

[Mythmere]

SW Explorers is the 6x9 for $10, 160 pages. But that's two-tiered princing - they have a "full priced" edition out there as well. People are okay buying the less expensive version because they know the "real" game sells for more. It's my strong belief (and yes, I could be wrong) that discount-bin prices aren't the way to maximize a game's exposure. It's perceived as a discount-bin product, especially if price is effectively the only data-point you have as a consumer.

If we become a big, well-known presence, then I'd say a "discount" print edition would be a great idea. But until that point, I think we'd shoot ourselves in the foot by pricing the book as if we think it's garbage compared to the rest of what's on the shelves.

Regardless, the distribution system pretty well forces that kind of price, anyway. If you can print a run of 5-10K copies in Thailand at a buck apiece, you can sell them for $10 like Pinnacle does. We don't have that capability.

[The Venomous Pao]

Oh sure. Come in here all cool and soothing with your logic and reassuring statements and ruin our panic party. DAMNIT MYTH! We were just getting started!



But seriously, more than anything I'm relieved to hear that it's not going to be Troll Lord as the publisher. I'm a big fan of editing and proofreading in my RPG books.

[Fullerton]

Just to damp down speculation, it's not TLG or XRP. You're not going to guess it ahead of time.

Another clue!

Let me address the various concerns, but first just to give an idea of the way distribution works in the game industry:
The game store gets the product for 60% of the retail price (that can vary, but it's the rough number). If you go through a distributor, the distributor takes about 15%. Then, somehow, I've failed to remember what happens to 5% of it. The publisher gets roughly 20% of the retail price. That means you have to mark the book up to five times the printing cost just to break even, and you're also paying whatever advertising expenses you have. This is why larger game companies have their own people out at the hobby stores trying to cut out the distributor.

I get 40% of MSRP for my Chaotic Henchmen Productions stuff that goes through the distributor and into brick & mortar stores. I also don't have to pay up-front fees or stocking fees, like those that Impressions charges to their small press publisher clients. I use War Path Games as my distributor, and they're not the sort of distributor that leaves you with only 20% of the retail price. (Incidentally, Goodman Games, Mongoose, Green Ronin, TLG, Rio Grande Games, Mayfair, Paizo, and other recognizable companies use War Path Games as part of their distribution strategy.)

[Magnus]

Well Mythmere you seem to have a good good grasp on the economics of the RPG industry and I have every confidence you will take the best route available for the Swords and wizardry project. How ever I do worry that if if the Swords and wizardry core book turns up as a soft back perfect bind with a £25 price sticker in my local London games shop it will be treated as "just another role playing game" when we all know its more than that. I still think its a good thing to have your cost as cheap as possible and i don't think it effects how people customers that much. If you want to target the next generation of gamers rather than 30+ gamer nostalgia market you have got to be competitive on price. Take Palladium games for example, you can criticize them for a lot of things but they have always kept their prices low and sold a lot of books to younger gamers, no other role playing company apart from Chaosium have survived without a change ownership since they started so Kevin Siembieda must be doing something right.

[Fullerton]

A quick check of Palladium Games prices shows softcover "core rulebook" type products at price points upwards $21, with page counts as low as 176 (IIRC). So Matt's numbers aren't far off that mark.